Hello,

    I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come and
rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my existing
Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating system.
We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both away
through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning and
evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a large tank
down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a day?"
     Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does anybody here
have one that would care to comment?  Thanks.. Jim

On Apr 23, 7:58=A0am, "Jimi"  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> =A0 =A0 I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come =
and
> rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my existin=
g
> Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating system.
> We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both away
> through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning and
> evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a large t=
ank
> down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a day?"
> =A0 =A0 =A0Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does anyb=
ody here
> have one that would care to comment? =A0Thanks.. Jim

  There are pros and cons to both systems, alot more than I feel or
want to write about for full info, which you need to research. But I
will answer a few points since all you heard from are people that
never owned one but think they are no good. I have a 460$ 117000btu
Bosch aquastar that has given me a 4 yr payback, I installes it, its
single use and heats fully with maybe 35f incomming for a hot shower.
If two people will use hw the 117000 btu ng unit may not be enough in
winter if incomming is cold. I kept my tank to temper incomming water
and it raises it 1-2f so I save a bit more. Gas line sizing is where
most mistakes are made. A tankless can use more than your furnace or
boiler so sizing and gas line testing is critical if you want 100%
output. In winter where I am pressure drops on the coldest days. if
you have the heating system, dryer, oven and stove on your supply can
be even less. You need to test gas flow and calculate these reductions
or you could starve a tankless.

  Most tanks that HD etc sell are near 55-65% efficent. Read about
Energy Factor. That is the tank efficency rating system. Tankless
start at 82EF and go to 96-98EF.  Tanks start at 55EF and go to only
85EF even for a 97% AO Vertex. so tankless is more efficent by design.
Tanks loose heat up the uninsulated middle, up the chimney 24x7. Tank
also loose efficency every year due to scale. I removed a 20 yr old
tank and it had about 12- 14" of scale in it. That scale reduced my
efficency so much that a new 82EF tank cut my bill 30%, a tankless
could have done better but this was a commercial use tank so in that
location I wanted a tank.

  Tankless have more to break than a cheap 55 EF tank, but not more
than a 85EF Vertex as I have one of those also. Tankless coils should
by design last 30 years
\
 How much do you spend to heat water, if you cook and dry clothes with
ng it will be hard to tell but your summer ng bill is where you start.
With my Ng tankless, gas dryer and cooking my Ng bill is always now
around 10$ in summer, down from 35-45$ . But I try to save on HW as my
game. HW to me is really money down the drain.

 If you need a big 190000 btu unit and wont do the install it could
cost you 1500-3000 for tankless. a cheap tank maybe 600, a AO Vertex
maybe 2400. You have to run your numbers, its also about being energy
minded.

On Apr 23, 10:58=A0am, "Jimi"  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> =A0 =A0 I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come =
and
> rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my existin=
g
> Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating system.
> We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both away
> through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning and
> evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a large t=
ank
> down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a day?"
> =A0 =A0 =A0Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does anyb=
ody here
> have one that would care to comment? =A0Thanks.. Jim

Much more common in Europe as we understand it. They use a lot of heat
for the very short period of time that hot water is needed and that is
claimed to be 'overall' (over long period of time) more efficient than
heating and having a tank of water kept hot all day and night.

Most "Instant Hot Water Heaters" we understand are 'electric tankless'
heaters. And use many kilowatts for the very short periods of time
they are in use. Some claim them to be totally adequate; others find
that if, for example someone is showering, there is not adequate hot
water to rinse a few dishes, so they install a second one for say the
kitchen or a second bathroom.

Have seen (tankless) numbers ranging from nine kilowatts to fifteen
kilowatts. That needs fairly heavy wiring, but again they only draw
electrcity when in use.

Based on our experience with 40 US gallon electric hot water tank
heaters, am not personally convinced that they are that much less
efficient than 'tankless' heaters.

Typically our tank heaters have 3 kilowatt heaters and in any case any
heat that even well insulated ones do lose help warm the house!

Perhaps a reasonable alternative for the OP could be a typical 3
kilowatt electric 40 gallon tank? Very easy to install needs
reasonable wiring and will typically last 10 to 15 years. Perhaps in
same space and using same plumbing as the gas heater but does not need
a flue/chimney or gas lines.

Here the basic cost of such a tank is less than $300** (not installed)
and our electricity cost is about ten cents per kilowatt/hour. Our
electric utility mentions that about 8% of a typical, all electric
family home, cost is for hot water. So in our case that means that our
hot water costs a bit less than $20 per month. (All charges incl,
sales tax.)

This is cool climate; most months need some home heating, especially
during cool evenings. So again some of the heat from hot water that
doesn't go straight down the drain helps slightly to warm the house.

So just a suggestion.

Our most current tanks ** are US made and sold here in eastern Canada.
(Haven't yet seen a Chinese one!!!!!).

There is by the way planning for a large additional hydro power
project 'The Lower Churchill' in Labrador, that will supply power to
the north east USA and eastern Canada during next few years. This will
be a reasonable and less polluting alternative to coal, oil or even
atomic generation. And since it will be using 'renewable water power'
will also keep electricity rates at a reasonable level;.

Jimi wrote:

> Hello,
>
>    I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come
> and rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my
> existing Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water
> heating system. We don't have a family living here only my wife and I
> and we're both away through the day working .....so the hot water
> demand is only morning and evenings. It makes sense when he explains
> it. He says "why have a large tank down there heating water 24/7 when
>     your demand is about an hour a day?" Are there any disadvantages
> to this tankless system? Does anybody here have one that would care to 
> comment?  Thanks.. Jim

We talked to our plumber about these (a really good company) and they had 
some interesting things to say.  They've had good results from some brands 
and not so good from others, they don't care for the Bosch tankless heaters. 
These systems are pricey and part of that is the gas lines and exhaust 
venting have to be the right size, that means it takes years for the system 
to pay for itself with lower energy costs due to not heating a tankful of 
water 24/7.  I think these systems make sense but you need to really crunch 
the numbers so you know how long before the high initial costs have been 
paid for.  In the long haul it's a safe bet energy costs will increase, so 
these systems will probably become more attractive over time. 

As ransley said =93run your numbers=94. Especially the ones for repair
service and parts. Just because it has a =934 yr payback=94 doesn=92t
necessarily mean that after four years you=92re not going to wind-up
paying what you saved on your utility bill for parts and service. Many
companies don=92t even make parts for what they sold five years ago and
even when you do find the part it is usually a cheap generic knock-off
that either won=92t fit or falls apart after a few weeks. In places like
Europe and Asia labor is cheap so owners don=92t pay as much for a
service call and the technicians don=92t have to worry as much about
liability if they jerry-rig the tank-less water heater to function if
they can=92t find the part. Check out the length and fine print on the
warranty to make sure you can get a new one if they can=92t fix it. Of
course that=92s assuming the company will still be in business after
many years.

We have 2 gas water heaters (tanks) and heat our house with NG. In summer, 
when there is no heating demand, our bill for the 2 heaters is about $ 8 per 
month, and that includes the gas dryer. This amount is negligible if you 
compare it to the installation cost of a 2 tankless heaters. I believe the 
benefit of tankless heaters is vastly overrated.

-- 

Walter
www.rationality.net

"Jimi" <u...@nospamhere.net> wrote in message 
news:H...@posted.sasktel...
> Hello,
>
>    I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come and
> rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my existing
> Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating system.
> We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both away
> through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning and
> evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a large 
> tank
> down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a day?"
>     Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does anybody here
> have one that would care to comment?  Thanks.. Jim
>
> 

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 06:58:18 -0600, "Jimi" <u...@nospamhere.net>
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>    I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come and
>rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my existing
>Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating system.
>We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both away
>through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning and
>evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a large tank
>down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a day?"
>     Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does anybody here
>have one that would care to comment?  Thanks.. Jim
>

The initial cost of tankless is very high.  For example, you can buy
3-4 tanks over 50 years for just one tankless.  Get a tank and put
extra insulation around it.  

I had one put in.  Overly expensive.  Probably not worth it.  I've had it 
for over a year.


"Jimi" <u...@nospamhere.net> wrote in message 
news:H...@posted.sasktel...
> Hello,
>
>    I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come and
> rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my existing
> Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating system.
> We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both away
> through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning and
> evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a large 
> tank
> down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a day?"
>     Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does anybody here
> have one that would care to comment?  Thanks.. Jim
>
> 

Gas fired Tankless Hot Water heater are almost never cost effective. The
simple payback on a tankless hot water heater is 100 years (eliminating
standby losses by switching to a tankless water heater will save about 22%
of the $15.00 per month that the average family spends on natural gas to
heat water - $40.00/year.  Retrofit costs average $4000.00 (unit plus
labor) yielding a 100 year payback. In addition you have somewhat complex
technology that not every plumber knows to install or maintain and you
need to clean the system every 12 month (hard water or other contaminants
can bring it to a stall). 

Should you never use them? It depends on the situation. Could be useful to
have a small electric hot water heater for a kitchen sink or far away
bathroom sink. I have a tankless hot water heater myself, but would never
install one again.

-------------------------------------
Jimi wrote:


> Hello,

>     I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency come
> and
> rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my
> existing
> Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating
> system.
> We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both
> away
> through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning
> and
> evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a
> large tank
> down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a
> day?"
>      Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does anybody
> here
> have one that would care to comment?  Thanks.. Jim

On May 3, 12:53=A0am, u...@foo.com (uwe) wrote:
> uwe had written this in response tohttp://www.thestuccocompany.com/mainte=
nance/Tankless-Hot-water-system...
> =A0:
> Gas fired Tankless Hot Water heater are almost never cost effective. The
> simple payback on a tankless hot water heater is 100 years (eliminating
> standby losses by switching to a tankless water heater will save about 22=
%
> of the $15.00 per month that the average family spends on natural gas to
> heat water - $40.00/year. =A0Retrofit costs average $4000.00 (unit plus
> labor) yielding a 100 year payback. In addition you have somewhat complex
> technology that not every plumber knows to install or maintain and you
> need to clean the system every 12 month (hard water or other contaminants
> can bring it to a stall).
>
> Should you never use them? It depends on the situation. Could be useful t=
o
> have a small electric hot water heater for a kitchen sink or far away
> bathroom sink. I have a tankless hot water heater myself, but would never
> install one again.
>
> -------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> Jimi wrote:
> > Hello,
> > =A0 =A0 I just had a person that rates houses for energy efficiency com=
e
> > and
> > rate our house. One of his suggestions he made was to pull out my
> > existing
> > Gas fired hot water tank and install a Tankless hot water heating
> > system.
> > We don't have a family living here only my wife and I and we're both
> > away
> > through the day working .....so the hot water demand is only morning
> > and
> > evenings. It makes sense when he explains it. He says "why have a
> > large tank
> > down there heating water 24/7 when your demand is about an hour a
> > day?"
> > =A0 =A0 =A0Are there any disadvantages to this tankless system? Does an=
ybody
> > here
> > have one that would care to comment? =A0Thanks.. Jim
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oh horse shit, my proven payback is 4 years, and that was 7 years ago
with my bosch tankless Ng unit. There is nothing like idiots like you
posting total crap.