Hi all,

this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this 
thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replacing 
it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so.  I have an indirect 
solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this 
time, reached the end of its useful life.  My inner greenie says, of 
course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an 
economically good idea...  my gas bills even in the winter are never 
over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing.  Even on a 
sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over 
85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all. 
  There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pump 
so I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking 
heat out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/

I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that the 
tank alone would run me over a kilobuck.  For that price, when you 
figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew 
how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt I 
actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and 
collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work 
efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the 
time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and near 
death.

Am I wrong...?

I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest 
of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away!  Use it for whatever the 
hell you want, I don't care!"

(the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)

nate

-- 
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this 
> thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replacing 
> it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so.  I have an indirect 
> solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this 
> time, reached the end of its useful life.  My inner greenie says, of 
> course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an 
> economically good idea...  my gas bills even in the winter are never 
> over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing.  Even on a 
> sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over 
> 85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all. 
>  There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pump so 
> I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking heat 
> out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/
> 
> I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that the 
> tank alone would run me over a kilobuck.  For that price, when you 
> figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew 
> how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt I 
> actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and 
> collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work 
> efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the 
> time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and near 
> death.
> 
> Am I wrong...?
> 
> I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest 
> of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away!  Use it for whatever the 
> hell you want, I don't care!"
> 
> (the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)
> 
> nate
> 

Forgot to mention my other idea:

1) buy new 40-gallon electric water heater appx. the same size as solar 
one (which is obviously just a modified electric anyway)

2) remove shell from old one, save copper coil wrapped around tank, 
discard rest

3) disassemble new tank, slip coil over tank, reinstall shell, fill 
space between with lots of Great Stuff(tm) (or just stuff old fiberglass 
back in there)  Laugh maniacally at having just spent $400+ on something 
and immediately voided the warranty.

4) install my "new" indirect solar tank

what do you think the odds are that a brand new Rheem 40 gal. tank (the 
internal tank, that is) is the exact same size as a 20 year old one?

seems a lot of mucking about for not much benefit, still...

nate

-- 
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
> 
> Nate Nagel wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this
> > thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replacing
> > it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so.  I have an indirect
> > solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this
> > time, reached the end of its useful life.  My inner greenie says, of
> > course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an
> > economically good idea...  my gas bills even in the winter are never
> > over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing.  Even on a
> > sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over
> > 85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all.
> >  There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pump so
> > I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking heat
> > out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/
> >
> > I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that the
> > tank alone would run me over a kilobuck.  For that price, when you
> > figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew
> > how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt I
> > actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and
> > collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work
> > efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the
> > time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and near
> > death.
> >
> > Am I wrong...?
> >
> > I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest
> > of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away!  Use it for whatever the
> > hell you want, I don't care!"
> >
> > (the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)
> >
> > nate
> >
> 
> Forgot to mention my other idea:
> 
> 1) buy new 40-gallon electric water heater appx. the same size as solar
> one (which is obviously just a modified electric anyway)
> 
> 2) remove shell from old one, save copper coil wrapped around tank,
> discard rest
> 
> 3) disassemble new tank, slip coil over tank, reinstall shell, fill
> space between with lots of Great Stuff(tm) (or just stuff old fiberglass
> back in there)  Laugh maniacally at having just spent $400+ on something
> and immediately voided the warranty.
> 
> 4) install my "new" indirect solar tank
> 
> what do you think the odds are that a brand new Rheem 40 gal. tank (the
> internal tank, that is) is the exact same size as a 20 year old one?
> 
> seems a lot of mucking about for not much benefit, still...

http://www.homepower.com 
http://www.nrel.gov
http://www.energystar.gov

Solar DHW heating is one of the most cost effective solar things you can
do. There are various federal tax credits you can take advantage of as
well as usually local credits as well.

Pete C. wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this
>>> thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replacing
>>> it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so.  I have an indirect
>>> solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this
>>> time, reached the end of its useful life.  My inner greenie says, of
>>> course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an
>>> economically good idea...  my gas bills even in the winter are never
>>> over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing.  Even on a
>>> sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over
>>> 85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all.
>>>  There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pump so
>>> I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking heat
>>> out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/
>>>
>>> I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that the
>>> tank alone would run me over a kilobuck.  For that price, when you
>>> figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew
>>> how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt I
>>> actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and
>>> collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work
>>> efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the
>>> time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and near
>>> death.
>>>
>>> Am I wrong...?
>>>
>>> I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest
>>> of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away!  Use it for whatever the
>>> hell you want, I don't care!"
>>>
>>> (the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>> Forgot to mention my other idea:
>>
>> 1) buy new 40-gallon electric water heater appx. the same size as solar
>> one (which is obviously just a modified electric anyway)
>>
>> 2) remove shell from old one, save copper coil wrapped around tank,
>> discard rest
>>
>> 3) disassemble new tank, slip coil over tank, reinstall shell, fill
>> space between with lots of Great Stuff(tm) (or just stuff old fiberglass
>> back in there)  Laugh maniacally at having just spent $400+ on something
>> and immediately voided the warranty.
>>
>> 4) install my "new" indirect solar tank
>>
>> what do you think the odds are that a brand new Rheem 40 gal. tank (the
>> internal tank, that is) is the exact same size as a 20 year old one?
>>
>> seems a lot of mucking about for not much benefit, still...
> 
> http://www.homepower.com 
> http://www.nrel.gov
> http://www.energystar.gov
> 
> Solar DHW heating is one of the most cost effective solar things you can
> do. There are various federal tax credits you can take advantage of as
> well as usually local credits as well.

Please elaborate on how this is cost effective...?  I'd handwave $3K 
minimum to replace this thing (like I said, the tank alone, without 
installation and delivery, seems to run around $1400;) even if my gas 
bills went up 50% (which I doubt that they would, I don't think it's 
really doing that much) I'd still be money ahead to just demo it and be 
done with it.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just am trying to run 
the numbers here, but AFAICT the benefit is not there.

I suppose I could bypass it and watch my gas bill for a couple months 
and compare it to last year's bill before making any final decisions, 
but I'm guessing I will only see an incremental increase if anything.

nate

-- 
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
> 
> Pete C. wrote:
> > Nate Nagel wrote:
> >> Nate Nagel wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this
> >>> thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replacing
> >>> it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so.  I have an indirect
> >>> solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this
> >>> time, reached the end of its useful life.  My inner greenie says, of
> >>> course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an
> >>> economically good idea...  my gas bills even in the winter are never
> >>> over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing.  Even on a
> >>> sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over
> >>> 85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all.
> >>>  There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pump so
> >>> I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking heat
> >>> out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/
> >>>
> >>> I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that the
> >>> tank alone would run me over a kilobuck.  For that price, when you
> >>> figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew
> >>> how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt I
> >>> actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and
> >>> collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work
> >>> efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the
> >>> time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and near
> >>> death.
> >>>
> >>> Am I wrong...?
> >>>
> >>> I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest
> >>> of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away!  Use it for whatever the
> >>> hell you want, I don't care!"
> >>>
> >>> (the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)
> >>>
> >>> nate
> >>>
> >> Forgot to mention my other idea:
> >>
> >> 1) buy new 40-gallon electric water heater appx. the same size as solar
> >> one (which is obviously just a modified electric anyway)
> >>
> >> 2) remove shell from old one, save copper coil wrapped around tank,
> >> discard rest
> >>
> >> 3) disassemble new tank, slip coil over tank, reinstall shell, fill
> >> space between with lots of Great Stuff(tm) (or just stuff old fiberglass
> >> back in there)  Laugh maniacally at having just spent $400+ on something
> >> and immediately voided the warranty.
> >>
> >> 4) install my "new" indirect solar tank
> >>
> >> what do you think the odds are that a brand new Rheem 40 gal. tank (the
> >> internal tank, that is) is the exact same size as a 20 year old one?
> >>
> >> seems a lot of mucking about for not much benefit, still...
> >
> > http://www.homepower.com
> > http://www.nrel.gov
> > http://www.energystar.gov
> >
> > Solar DHW heating is one of the most cost effective solar things you can
> > do. There are various federal tax credits you can take advantage of as
> > well as usually local credits as well.
> 
> Please elaborate on how this is cost effective...?  I'd handwave $3K
> minimum to replace this thing (like I said, the tank alone, without
> installation and delivery, seems to run around $1400;) even if my gas
> bills went up 50% (which I doubt that they would, I don't think it's
> really doing that much) I'd still be money ahead to just demo it and be
> done with it.
> 
> Seriously, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just am trying to run
> the numbers here, but AFAICT the benefit is not there.
> 
> I suppose I could bypass it and watch my gas bill for a couple months
> and compare it to last year's bill before making any final decisions,
> but I'm guessing I will only see an incremental increase if anything.

That last bit would be a good real world test of the current (failing,
obsolete) system, but wouldn't tell you much about how a new current
generation system would perform.

On the links I provided:

homepower.com - Download their sample issue to look at the ads for some
current systems and the manufacturers web sites

nrel.gov - Look for links to the solar resource maps for your area which
will tell you how viable it is in your area

energystar.gov - Look for info on current federal tax credits available

There is another site I can't remember at the moment (probably a link
from NREL) that has a database of state / local incentives.

On Apr 20, 5:26=A0pm, Nate Nagel  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this
> thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replacing
> it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so. =A0I have an indirec=
t
> solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this
> time, reached the end of its useful life. =A0My inner greenie says, of
> course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an
> economically good idea... =A0my gas bills even in the winter are never
> over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing. =A0Even on a
> sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over
> 85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all.
> =A0 There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pump
> so I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking
> heat out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/
>
> I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that the
> tank alone would run me over a kilobuck. =A0For that price, when you
> figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew
> how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt I
> actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and
> collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work
> efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the
> time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and near
> death.
>
> Am I wrong...?
>
> I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest
> of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away! =A0Use it for whatever the
> hell you want, I don't care!"
>
> (the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Why not make it work right, a aqua stat could keep the pump from
running until pipe is hot, so it would not pump on cloudy days. I use
a cheap unit bolted to a pipe on a recirculator system. Find the
leaks. Going electric is more expensive than gas for maybe 98% of the
US. For single use I use a Bosch ng tankless that is more efficent
than about 98% of tanks made, Solar and cheap Tankless would likely
work for two people easily. I would not junk a solar set up.
alt.energyhomepower is where you will get answers from people off
grid.

ransley wrote:
> On Apr 20, 5:26 pm, Nate Nagel  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this
>> thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replacing
>> it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so.  I have an indirect
>> solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this
>> time, reached the end of its useful life.  My inner greenie says, of
>> course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an
>> economically good idea...  my gas bills even in the winter are never
>> over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing.  Even on a
>> sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over
>> 85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all.
>>   There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pump
>> so I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking
>> heat out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/
>>
>> I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that the
>> tank alone would run me over a kilobuck.  For that price, when you
>> figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew
>> how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt I
>> actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and
>> collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work
>> efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the
>> time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and near
>> death.
>>
>> Am I wrong...?
>>
>> I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest
>> of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away!  Use it for whatever the
>> hell you want, I don't care!"
>>
>> (the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)
>>
>> nate
>>
>> --
>> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel
> 
> Why not make it work right, a aqua stat could keep the pump from
> running until pipe is hot, so it would not pump on cloudy days. I use
> a cheap unit bolted to a pipe on a recirculator system. 

Where do you find a "cheap" one...?  I'm seeing prices of $3-400 for a 
simple controller with two thermocouples.

> Find the
> leaks.

I know where the leak *isn't* - anywhere I can fix.  There's water 
coming out the bottom of the tank, and it's not coming from any of the 
fittings.

> Going electric is more expensive than gas for maybe 98% of the
> US. For single use I use a Bosch ng tankless that is more efficent
> than about 98% of tanks made, Solar and cheap Tankless would likely
> work for two people easily. I would not junk a solar set up.
> alt.energyhomepower is where you will get answers from people off
> grid.

I've got the solar feeding a conventional 40 gal. gas tank, which I 
suspect is doing most of the work.  Incoming water is about 60F; have 
not seen output of solar tank over 90ish... ever.  Got a nice big 
collector too...

nate


-- 
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

> Where do you find a "cheap" one...?  I'm seeing prices of $3-400 for a
> simple controller with two thermocouples.
>
>> Find the
>> leaks.
>
> I know where the leak *isn't* - anywhere I can fix.  There's water
> coming out the bottom of the tank, and it's not coming from any of the
> fittings.

Just out of curiousity, did you replace the anode in the tank every several 
years. As I understand it, this can significantly extend the life.

On Apr 20, 8:55=A0pm, Nate Nagel  wrote:
> ransley wrote:
> > On Apr 20, 5:26 pm, Nate Nagel  wrote:
> >> Hi all,
>
> >> this has been discussed here before, mostly because I expected this
> >> thing to crap the bed years ago, but every time I got close to replaci=
ng
> >> it suddenly my floor was dry for another year or so. =A0I have an indi=
rect
> >> solar water heater in my basement, and I think it has, for real this
> >> time, reached the end of its useful life. =A0My inner greenie says, of
> >> course, to replace it, but I'm not thinking that that is really an
> >> economically good idea... =A0my gas bills even in the winter are never
> >> over $200 a month; in the summer it's practically nothing. =A0Even on =
a
> >> sunny summer day the output temp. of the solar never seems to get over
> >> 85-90F (very shady lot) in the winter I wonder if it even helps at all=
.
> >> =A0 There's no controller on the thing just a time switch running a pu=
mp
> >> so I wonder if on a cold, overcast day if the darn thing isn't sucking
> >> heat out of my water supply and dumping it into the atmosphere :/
>
> >> I remember doing research into this a year or two ago and found that t=
he
> >> tank alone would run me over a kilobuck. =A0For that price, when you
> >> figure in installation as well (I could probably handle it, if I knew
> >> how to charge the loop between the tank and the collector, but I doubt=
 I
> >> actually *would*) as well as an electronic controller with tank and
> >> collector thermocouples (seems the only way to really make it work
> >> efficiently) I don't see a reasonable payoff period... probably by the
> >> time it'd paid itself off the tank would again be 20 years old and nea=
r
> >> death.
>
> >> Am I wrong...?
>
> >> I'm tempted to rip it out, take the tank to the dump, and put the rest
> >> of the setup on craigslist as "haul it away! =A0Use it for whatever th=
e
> >> hell you want, I don't care!"
>
> >> (the extra floor space in the basement would be nice, too...)
>
> >> nate
>
> >> --
> >> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel
>
> > Why not make it work right, a aqua stat could keep the pump from
> > running until pipe is hot, so it would not pump on cloudy days. I use
> > a cheap unit bolted to a pipe on a recirculator system.
>
> Where do you find a "cheap" one...? =A0I'm seeing prices of $3-400 for a
> simple controller with two thermocouples.
>
> > Find the
> > leaks.
>
> I know where the leak *isn't* - anywhere I can fix. =A0There's water
> coming out the bottom of the tank, and it's not coming from any of the
> fittings.
>
> > Going electric is more expensive than gas for maybe 98% of the
> > US. For single use I use a Bosch ng tankless that is more efficent
> > than about 98% of tanks made, Solar and cheap Tankless would likely
> > work for two people easily. I would not junk a solar set up.
> > alt.energyhomepower is where you will get answers from people off
> > grid.
>
> I've got the solar feeding a conventional 40 gal. gas tank, which I
> suspect is doing most of the work. =A0Incoming water is about 60F; have
> not seen output of solar tank over 90ish... ever. =A0Got a nice big
> collector too...
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hi=
de quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Cheap is maybe 40$, its used for hw recirculator systems, mine clamos
onto a hw pipe and I set the temp for it to kick out, im sure you
could engineer it to shut off when temp is low.

On Apr 21, 12:29=A0am, "Bob F"  wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
> > Where do you find a "cheap" one...? =A0I'm seeing prices of $3-400 for =
a
> > simple controller with two thermocouples.
>
> >> Find the
> >> leaks.
>
> > I know where the leak *isn't* - anywhere I can fix. =A0There's water
> > coming out the bottom of the tank, and it's not coming from any of the
> > fittings.
>
> Just out of curiousity, did you replace the anode in the tank every sever=
al
> years. As I understand it, this can significantly extend the life.

Just bought the house a little over 2 years ago.  I did replace the
anode in the tank and it appeared to be used up but not so much that I
suspected that the tank had been left unprotected, but it seems to
have been "too little too late."  PO's apparently didn't understand
the necessity of checking it every couple years and also regular
flushing, you should have seen the crap that came out when I flushed
it for the first time.  Also I suspect that the bottom of the tank was
getting wet externally - lots of little things were leaking in the
house before I moved in and I've been picking away at them one by
one.  Yes, the tank is sitting directly on the floor, which I'm not
nuts about.

I ended up having to replace the water heater in the garage as it
failed shortly after purchase of the house (making a lovely mess of
the ceiling below;) the gas water heater in the basement however
appears to still be going strong.  (just gave it the same treatment as
the solar one - replaced drain valve so I could flush it, replaced
anode)  that one seems to be sitting on a high spot on the floor so
the bottom never got damp.

nate